L5R System Discussion

[cassusaevum]

I'll preface this by saying I'm enjoying L5R and want to keep going with the campaign.  I am, however, starting to think that we may be better off in a different system.  This is stemming from a variety of different discussions I've had with you guys coupled with my own feelings for the system so far.  I've spent a lot of time thinking about how the pieces are fitting together in this longer break that we've had.  I'm enjoying the story and the characters and definitely don't want to scrap the campaign because of system weirdness but I do want to put some options on the table.  I also want the story to unfold in a way that maximizes fun for everyone.

Here are my nits:

1. The Strife system can, at times, force you to roleplay in certain ways you might otherwise not wish to.
2. The Honor and Status system can feel punishing and punitive and, frankly, isn't clearly defined.  That's on purpose and has existed in previous editions, but isn't a great fit for all groups.
3. Advantages and Disadvantages are difficult to keep track of and, as a result, rarely have much meaning in play.
4. Dice rolls always carry a risk of strain - this makes it hard to do things like call for a notice check.
5. The intrigue mechanic (not the influence one I added for court but how actual intrigues work in the book) is quickly becoming repetitive
6. Stances have mechanical meaning, but we've somewhat disconnected them from the RP meaning.  I think this is inevitable - much like in FFG Star Wars, there's just a lot to try and keep track of so it's hard to incorporate some of the "narrative" aspects of the rules set when you're actually sitting at the table.
7. The mass combat system is meh at best (and no matter what we do, I'm throwing it out in favor of something else)
8. I find the skill system lacking.  When you weed out the truly useless skills, there's not much variety remaining.
9. The Title system, while initially interesting is, in practice, another mechanical bit to try and track and one that doesn't have much payoff for the tracking
10. Bookkeeping.  There is quite a bit more than I realized at first blush, as evinced by your growing stacks of cards.

So, despite the length of the list, if folks are just really digging the FFG L5R system, I can make it work.  I might houserule some things (like turning off Honor/Status/Glory), but I don't think it's a completely unworkable system.  That said, my proposal would be to switch to FATE Core (not to be confused with FATE Accelerated, which I think would be a little too abstract for me for L5R). 

So, realistically, what might that mean for the game?  First, it would mean throwing out a lot of the forced drama of the "samurai drama."  By that, I mean we won't have every roll with an opportunity to get strife and the whole masking/unmasking thing would be right out the window.  If you want your character to have a violent outburst, then that's up to you, not how much strife you've taken.  Likewise, the dice won't be able to force you to be sad or scared or whatever.  Next, Honor, Status, and Glory would be gone, except as expressed in Aspects and Conditions.  But gaining and losing these attributes would no longer be a thing.  Mechanical resolution would of course change as well, relying on the standard FATE system (4 fate dice + skill compared to a TN or an opposed roll).  We would probably leverage both the idea of contests and the idea of the Fate Fractal (both of which probably only mean something to Dave, but oh well) to take care of things like Court intrigues.

The objective would be to create a more flowing RP experience that isn't quite as bounded by the rules (both mechanically and from Rokugan society) while trying to keep the same characterization and the path of the story.  I would be using a somewhat "hacked" version of FATE Core that I'm still tweaking/finalizing (looking at you, skill list), but for example, your 5 Aspects would look something like:

1. High Aspect 
2. Trouble Aspect
3. School Apsect (Kuni Purifier / Kakita Duelist / Shosuro Infiltrator / Mirumoto Twin Blades)
4. Honor Aspect (how you feel about Honor in Rokugan - example: Honor is a Tool; My Honor is my Life; Death before Dishonor; Honor is a Lie; There are things more important than honor; etc...)
5. Open Aspect
6. Open Aspect

All cards on the table, I'd prefer to switch to Fate.  That said, I'd still have fun in the FFG version... I just think that overall we might find FATE to be less intrusive.

Let me know what you think.  If we want to stick to FFG, then all systems go for Friday.  If we want to switch, still all systems go, but we'll spend the first part of the session doing a bit of a conversion/rewrite of your characters.

[gamedave]

Rule 0: It's A Game.
First Corollary to Rule 0: If it's not fun, don't do it.
Second Corollary to Rule 0: If the GM's not having fun, no one's having fun.

Nick, you put a lot of work into the campaign. If it will be more fun for you to switch to FATE, I'm all for switching.

That being said...

I actually like this edition of L5R, at least for what it is. I think that FFG's Genesys system, which L5R is partially based on, is a bad system. I think it's a really bad fit for Star Wars. But. I think the drift they've done with it for L5R actually works pretty well.

I hate the Stress mechanic in Star Wars, but I like the Strife mechanic in L5R. In Star Wars, I really felt like I was being punished for trying to play with a "never tell me the odds" attitude due to the stress mechanic. I feel like the Strife mechanic, in contrast, provides a solid mechanical system for capturing the constant tension between duty and desire, between control and passion, between social propriety and raw humanity that is so central to samurai drama.

I think the skill system is flavorful and fits the genre. But I do agree, a lot of the skills don't really seem to do anything.

I like the school and role advancement systems. I'm a grognard - I like advancement paths and checklists, at least when there's some level of choice and trade-off, which I feel this system has.

I like the concepts of having Honor, Status, and Glory mechanics. I do agree, though, that they don't seem to have much actual impact or use in play.

There is a lot to track, but, again, grognard. I like systems with fiddly bits, at least up to a point. I think L5R is just about at the outer limit of fiddly bit management for me, but it's not as far gone as, say, Pathfinder. And the fiddly bits all seem to serve a real purpose in establishing the themes and feel of the game.

All of that being said...

I thought the L5R system looked interesting enough that I wanted to give it a try in a full campaign, and now I've had a decent chance to do that. I like it, but I don't love it. As I stated at the beginning, I'm fine with a switch to FATE, if that makes the campaign more fun.

A couple of caveats to that, though....

Nick, I know you stated you don't like how the Strife systems forces roleplay, but I actually think that's a strength of the system. In fact, I think it's pretty core. It makes it Samurai Drama, rather than just D&D Oriental Adventures. (Of course, I liked OA, so that's fine with me too...). And actually, FATE Core has, well, aspects of that with Aspects and Compels. It's more voluntary there, since Compels allow a player to buy their way out with a Fate Point. If we switch to FATE, I really think our Aspects need to have some elements that allow giri-vs.-ninjo Compels.

Also, and this is just my personal experience, but in a few decades of playing RPGs, I personally can only think of a couple of times out of at least a couple of dozen where a campaign survived a system switch mid-way through.

But, again, I'm willing to try.

[cassusaevum]

To clarify, I'm having fun. I don't want people to think that I'm not. But I am worried about the total amount of fun being had at the table and if the niggling bits of the rules are starting to add up for folks. I want to make sure we KEEP having fun, so that I can actually get to the end of this campaign (which at the highest level outline looks something like Court-War-Wall so quite a lot of road ahead of us).

The funny thing is, L5R has always existed without the Strife mechanic and the explicit Ninjo-Giri thing. This is the first edition of the game to lean so heavily into a mechanic to support that. Which is not to say it isn't supposed to be an important part of the game regardless of edition (part of the reason I think FATE might work better for us having started the game in FFG-L5R as opposed to switching to AEG 4e L5R since consequences and aspects can fill in some gaps). I do agree that it's a great add to include an aspect or two around Ninjo/Giri if we go FATE, though.

And I'm not married to the idea of switching systems. But I know several folks at the table have a variety of issues, none of which are necessarily MAJOR issues, but I'm worried about the additive factor. I wanted to put this out there in an attempt to stave off any future problems to the longevity of the game. Still, your points are valid and duly noted. I'd definitely interested in hearing the thoughts from others... maybe my perception of the level of strife (pun intended) being caused by the fiddly bits is off.