Post by gamedave on Dec 26, 2020 9:25:42 GMT -5
I originally posted the following to another discussion board, so it references other posts in the thread on that board. I've made a few edits for clarity, but some bits might still read awkwardly.
I loved Wonder Woman. I re-watched it yesterday before WW84. I thought it botched the climax, but up until then, it was just really solid, with moments of sheer brilliance.
After that, WW84 was really disappointing. It was just not good.
It managed to combine the some of the worst elements of a prequel and a sequel.
Prequels, by their nature, have inherent continuity problems. How do you have character growth and development and, especially for super hero prequels, big exciting events, without contradicting the already established continuity? In this case, apparently by just saying screw it.
Batman v Superman and Justice League established that Wonder Woman had cut herself off from the world for a century, and the only trace of her that either Lex Luthor, with his vast resource, or Batman, the World’s Greatest Detective with Bruce Wayne’s vast resources, could find was a single photo from World War I. Yet, she was apparently active, as Wonder Woman, in costume, the whole time, including foiling random robberies. The movie vaguely hand waves towards this. In one scene. Where she knocks out some security cameras. After she’s already revealed herself. And then there’s the whole bit where she invades the White House and brawls with the Secret Service and White House police…
Wonder Woman in 1984 is also apparently Silver Age Superman, and randomly manifests new super powers. Which she randomly doesn’t have later in her career.
And then there’s the trap superhero sequels have been falling into since Batman Returns, almost 30 years ago. There are just way too many characters and plotlines. We have to establish Wonder Woman as she exists in 1984, and her character arc. And get the Wishstone. And Max Lord’s character arc. And Barbara Minverva’s character arc. And establish Barbara’s and Diana’s friendship. And Barbara’s and Max’s relationship (that the movie seems to forget about halfway through). And the return of Steve Trevor, and his relationship with Diana. And all of that after a lengthy opening sequence on Themiscyra that doesn’t really directly tie into the plot (and has its own continuity issues). The result is none of the plotlines or character arcs get enough time.
There’s also a lot of Idiot Plotting. The Smithsonian keeps display aircraft out on the tarmac, flight ready, and fully fueled? And a two seat jet trainer has enough fuel to fly directly from Washington, D.C. to Cairo? And back? There just happen to be highly classified briefing materials on the magical comm system Lord needs just kind of sitting around on big poster boards in the Oval Office when he comes in, and no one bothers to take them down, and the President wasn’t even supposed to be there until he’s Wished there? And so on.
And the Wishstone plot is incoherent. At first, it seems like it retroactively creates coincidences to fulfill wishes. It’s actually a plot point called out in dialogue that it works that way during Max’s meeting with Simon Stagg (“Some magical coincidence will get you out of my way”, then the FBI shows up investigating Stagg for financial fraud). But then it just starts creating world-altering miracles out of thin air. And it’s a plot point that the Wishstone can only grant a person one wish, even when Max wants to grant someone another wish, but then for no apparent reason, Barbara is able to add another wish?
And the whole situation is a huge continuity issue for later movies. I was actually expecting them to use the old “I wish none of this ever happened” trope. It would have been cheesy, but at least it would have explained why the events of the movie seemed to have no impact on the world. I mean, there was apparently a day in 1984 when wishes came true, the kingdom of Bialya suddenly re-established itself in the middle of Cairo with a mega-wall that appeared out of thin air, and the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. went to war and launched nuclear missiles at each other - which magically vanished in mid-flight, and then both sides just…forgot about it?
I could go on, but, the whole thing was just a mess.
Also, Steve Trevor’s reappearance effectively murdered an innocent man, and both he and Diana know that - we get an entire scene with them discussing the life of the man Steve has replaced, and they both then just kind of…wander off, and don’t mention it again.
And while I appreciated seeing Linda Carter again, and including her, as a legendary Amazon hero, was a nice touch, the actual execution was just clumsy and cringe-inducing.
Oh, and one bit early on bugged me. The four robbers in the mall. How did Wonder Woman know the two inside men were involved? Sure, they ran, but everyone was running, because “Gun!”. And they were pleading with the one guy to put the girl down, but so was everyone else. I actually liked it that the other three robbers abandoned their own getaways to try to talk hostage-taker guy down. It was a nice, humanistic touch - the other three were robbers, not child-murderers. They endangered their own freedom to try to help the girl. And for that…they got their asses beaten by Wonder Woman. I mean, I get not just letting them go after an armed robbery, but…
Barbara's arc, as with so much else, was kind of a mess. It was a plot point that the cost of Barbara’s wish was her humanity. She wasn’t just a milquetoast. We see her earlier in the movie giving a meal to a homeless man she apparently knows by name and also apparently frequently gives food to. It was not at all clearly shown, but I think Diana and Barbara are supposed to be establishing a genuine friendship, with Diana attracted to Barbara because Barbara is genuinely nice. The Wishstone takes that from her, which is supposed to make Barbara a tragic not-quite-villain.
And this is one part of the movie that I actually liked. Cheetah and Max Lord are both tragic figures, undone by their own weakness, not quite true villains. They get redemption arcs. The movie just shorts and hamfists those arcs, because see above about cramming in too many plotlines and character arcs.
I loved Wonder Woman. I re-watched it yesterday before WW84. I thought it botched the climax, but up until then, it was just really solid, with moments of sheer brilliance.
After that, WW84 was really disappointing. It was just not good.
It managed to combine the some of the worst elements of a prequel and a sequel.
Prequels, by their nature, have inherent continuity problems. How do you have character growth and development and, especially for super hero prequels, big exciting events, without contradicting the already established continuity? In this case, apparently by just saying screw it.
Batman v Superman and Justice League established that Wonder Woman had cut herself off from the world for a century, and the only trace of her that either Lex Luthor, with his vast resource, or Batman, the World’s Greatest Detective with Bruce Wayne’s vast resources, could find was a single photo from World War I. Yet, she was apparently active, as Wonder Woman, in costume, the whole time, including foiling random robberies. The movie vaguely hand waves towards this. In one scene. Where she knocks out some security cameras. After she’s already revealed herself. And then there’s the whole bit where she invades the White House and brawls with the Secret Service and White House police…
Wonder Woman in 1984 is also apparently Silver Age Superman, and randomly manifests new super powers. Which she randomly doesn’t have later in her career.
And then there’s the trap superhero sequels have been falling into since Batman Returns, almost 30 years ago. There are just way too many characters and plotlines. We have to establish Wonder Woman as she exists in 1984, and her character arc. And get the Wishstone. And Max Lord’s character arc. And Barbara Minverva’s character arc. And establish Barbara’s and Diana’s friendship. And Barbara’s and Max’s relationship (that the movie seems to forget about halfway through). And the return of Steve Trevor, and his relationship with Diana. And all of that after a lengthy opening sequence on Themiscyra that doesn’t really directly tie into the plot (and has its own continuity issues). The result is none of the plotlines or character arcs get enough time.
There’s also a lot of Idiot Plotting. The Smithsonian keeps display aircraft out on the tarmac, flight ready, and fully fueled? And a two seat jet trainer has enough fuel to fly directly from Washington, D.C. to Cairo? And back? There just happen to be highly classified briefing materials on the magical comm system Lord needs just kind of sitting around on big poster boards in the Oval Office when he comes in, and no one bothers to take them down, and the President wasn’t even supposed to be there until he’s Wished there? And so on.
And the Wishstone plot is incoherent. At first, it seems like it retroactively creates coincidences to fulfill wishes. It’s actually a plot point called out in dialogue that it works that way during Max’s meeting with Simon Stagg (“Some magical coincidence will get you out of my way”, then the FBI shows up investigating Stagg for financial fraud). But then it just starts creating world-altering miracles out of thin air. And it’s a plot point that the Wishstone can only grant a person one wish, even when Max wants to grant someone another wish, but then for no apparent reason, Barbara is able to add another wish?
And the whole situation is a huge continuity issue for later movies. I was actually expecting them to use the old “I wish none of this ever happened” trope. It would have been cheesy, but at least it would have explained why the events of the movie seemed to have no impact on the world. I mean, there was apparently a day in 1984 when wishes came true, the kingdom of Bialya suddenly re-established itself in the middle of Cairo with a mega-wall that appeared out of thin air, and the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. went to war and launched nuclear missiles at each other - which magically vanished in mid-flight, and then both sides just…forgot about it?
I could go on, but, the whole thing was just a mess.
Also, Steve Trevor’s reappearance effectively murdered an innocent man, and both he and Diana know that - we get an entire scene with them discussing the life of the man Steve has replaced, and they both then just kind of…wander off, and don’t mention it again.
And while I appreciated seeing Linda Carter again, and including her, as a legendary Amazon hero, was a nice touch, the actual execution was just clumsy and cringe-inducing.
Oh, and one bit early on bugged me. The four robbers in the mall. How did Wonder Woman know the two inside men were involved? Sure, they ran, but everyone was running, because “Gun!”. And they were pleading with the one guy to put the girl down, but so was everyone else. I actually liked it that the other three robbers abandoned their own getaways to try to talk hostage-taker guy down. It was a nice, humanistic touch - the other three were robbers, not child-murderers. They endangered their own freedom to try to help the girl. And for that…they got their asses beaten by Wonder Woman. I mean, I get not just letting them go after an armed robbery, but…
Barbara's arc, as with so much else, was kind of a mess. It was a plot point that the cost of Barbara’s wish was her humanity. She wasn’t just a milquetoast. We see her earlier in the movie giving a meal to a homeless man she apparently knows by name and also apparently frequently gives food to. It was not at all clearly shown, but I think Diana and Barbara are supposed to be establishing a genuine friendship, with Diana attracted to Barbara because Barbara is genuinely nice. The Wishstone takes that from her, which is supposed to make Barbara a tragic not-quite-villain.
And this is one part of the movie that I actually liked. Cheetah and Max Lord are both tragic figures, undone by their own weakness, not quite true villains. They get redemption arcs. The movie just shorts and hamfists those arcs, because see above about cramming in too many plotlines and character arcs.