Ideas for revamp

[Captain Monkeypants]

So I've been thinking about ways to improve the game mechanics. In talking on the way from gaming and the conversation that took place after gaming, it appears that one big point of contention. My thoughts are as follows:

To Hit:
This is a big area and I don't think that needs much work, instead I thought of a new idea. From dnd4e why dont we take the idea of different categories for enemies? For example I was thinking of this:

Mook -> Henchmen -> Villain -> Super Villian

A mook would be like a mercanary, soldier, or some other concept that involves little to no training. An example would be a guard.

A henchman would be someone with training but is not a named villain. An example would be a sentinel.

A villain would be someone that has superpowers or is a character made by using similar methods as pc character creation. An example would be Pyro.

A super villain is a plot driven enemy, archenemy, etc. An example would be Magneto to the X-Men or Dr. Doom to the Fantastic Four.

What I was thinking would be that these different categories would have different inherent abilities.

Defense:
Mooks and Henchmen have no defense, but villains do. This is not to say they can't have armor/damage mitigation or something of that nature, but they dont have a defense bonus. The logic is how often does a superhero actually miss one of these types of people. To hit the big guys or villains, there would be some skill required.

Powers:
Mooks do not have any special abilities or traits, but are basically thugs with guns. Henchmen may have some better abilities, better guns, or mild super powers, i.e. generic energy blaster. Villains and super villains have the same limitations as pc characters.

Health:
Mooks have one hit point per category (just my pride, banged up, etc) but they don't have any pride (or first category of damage). Henchmen do have pride and have either one or two boxes per category to allow for different versions of henchmen, perhaps henchmen and henchmen elite. Villains have three boxes per category and do have pride. Super villains have four boxes per category and are usually cosmic in scale (Galactus or the primary villain in a story arch or an archenemy).


How this would have affected us last night (in my thoughts):
The big fight would have had all the small guys as mooks and the larger guys as henchmen. The henchmen would have had armor (and maybe the mooks would have had some DR). This would have resolved the issue that we were unable to hit them. I don't know what your scale was (i.e. if we were supposed to get as challenged as we did) or if you would view the big guys as villains and the smaller guys as henchmen/mooks, but I hope you get my drift.

Final Thoughts on "To hit":

I think the way it is currently is fine. I think the scale of our enemies defenses is the root issue. In reading comics, and watching tv shows/movies, very rarely do the heroes miss all together. More often is it that there is some defensive mechanism that a villain has that is the reason they didn't hit (i.e. magneto controlling wolverine's adamantium, or something like that), but when a hero goes against lesser people, they almost never miss. Starting at terrible and trying to hit requires a die roll that occurs 2/81 of the time or 1 out of ever 40(ish) rolls. Twice as rare as a natural 20 in dnd, and that is just to hit. To me, that seems less than heroic, which pollutes the very fabric of the game and the world you're trying to create. In my mind, heroes don't miss when they run up against mookish or henchman-type foes. I haven't been reading comics as long or as constant as other members of our group, but when you watch the X-men, Avengers, Justice League superheroes they are just better than a mook or a henchmen.

Note from the poster:
I learned how to spell villain. I thought it was ian.

Also, I thought of the idea of variations of henchmen towards the end of the post, and didn't feel it required me to go back to state how it would have possibly changed last night's session, as the people that read the post could figure it out themselves.

[gamedave]

Mike,

Some very interesting thoughts.

The RPG Hong Kong Action Theater actually uses a similar system, where the difficulty in hitting a bad guy depends entirely on the bad guy's importance to the plot.

As far as Mooks, Henchmen, etc. go, the game already has these categories - Extras, Supporting Characters, and Main Characters (Heroes and Villains). And, similar to what you've suggested, Extras have one box per Damage Level, Supporting Characters have two, and Main Characters have 3.

In earlier iterations of the game, everyone got a defense roll when attacked - except Extras. When defense rolls went away, so did this difference. Under later iterations, without defense rolls, Extras just usually had smaller defense bonuses.

I actually don't agree that heroes always hit, even henchmen. Sure, Captain America wades through Hydra agents, but he's Captain America. That's what he does. Even the Batman is often depicted as having to go a few rounds with ordinary criminals, and most heroes actually have some difficulty hitting Hand ninjas (and they are the very definition of an Extra/mook - nameless, faceless, and they even conveniently self-destruct when they are defeated).

And going beyond the super-hero genre into the larger action genre, heroes always win sword-fights with mooks, but it takes even Xena or Robin Hood a few rounds and the occasional miss. And even more so in Heroic Gunplay movies, the heroes miss all the time. It often takes Bruce Willis or Mel Gibson a few rounds of duck-and-cover shooting to take out the terrorist hordes.

Plus, this is an RPG, and even Extras/mooks/minions should pose some threat to the PCs.

But, I definitely do agree, under the system we are using, it is often much too hard to hit Extras. There should be a chance to miss them, but I don't think it should be nearly impossible (as it often is in the current system).

The problem with the 4F Edition, as I see it, is that the scale is too confined. With the attack chart only going from -3 to +3, and with a -3 meaning it is virtually impossible to hit, but with even unpowered humans having Abilities up to +7, it is very easy to hit one extreme of the chart or the other. Just as important, with a chart range of only -3 to +3, it is difficult to inflict penalties - even a -1 makes a big difference, to someone in the Normal range of Abilities (+0 to +3) - while to someone else, say a super-soldier with an Attack Rank of +12, even a -4 penalty is no big deal.

BTW, as to last game session in particular, yeah, that fight was poorly balanced. The Chitauri Warriors were Extras with a Combat Rank of +2, and the Chitauri Battle Pods were Supporting Characters with a Combat Rank of +3. In retrospect, both should have probably had a Combat Rank of +1 (in the Ultimate Avengers movies, the Chitauri are good, but not great, in combat), and there probably should have been a lot fewer Battle Pods. But even then, I just don't think the current system works well enough.

[Captain Monkeypants]

Dave,

I appreciate all the thought that you put into the reply, and I definitely agree with the bulk of your points though I have to go back to the statement about the fudge system. It is confining, but I like the balance it brings that it is always possible to hit (even if it is mathematically remote). I like that instance of balance in the game, and as for my two cents on the idea, I think the ability to always have a chance at hitting should remain in the game, no matter what system we adopt. I agree with the fact that my having a +12 to hit is very good, and yes, it does allow me to do things a person with a lower bonus or no bonus wouldn't think of, but I think it does raise a good point of interest. I think a serious look needs to be taken at the amount of actions a player can take per round. Perhaps a person has 1 + (the number of Hero Points the character has) actions per round. That way a new character can move and shoot, but a Superman-esque character can do a ton of actions. It may seem unbalancing, but in the 5 or so years I've played superheroes, I've only ever seen one hero point given out. The rarity seems to balance this idea. I also think a clearer definition of an action needs to be established if we pursue this idea.

Again, these are just some thoughts I have, and seeing as how it is after midnight, I'm just hoping they are coherent.

[Derek Raines]

Having watched this game system alter in just the time I have spent playing with you all has been like watching a child swinging at a pinata and coming within mere inches of busting that mother open and having all the good, sweet candies come pouring out. My point is, the backbone and core of the system is there- what is lacking is A. Some Detail Work and B. A new Mindset. And we are very close to finding that sweet spot! So hang in there!

A. The Details. It always comes down to the details, don't it? The details are, honestly, rather simple to work out. Just takes time, some patience and a true desire to beta some concepts out. You make a list of the things that are giving you trouble and you try some new ways to solve them- Too many actions in a round? Try a cap. Bad guys too beefy? Create minion rules, lower defences or lower power ratings. Players struggling to contribute in combat? Survive? Promote ways for characters to earn much needed bonuses so that they can contend with true threats and villains! This and many more is what we should be play testing- when new ideas are tossed out, give them a night to be test driven just to see how they work! You never know what simple solution just might do the trick!

B. Now this is the big one. It is my belief that HA! has always suffered from somewhat of an identity disorder. It wants to be a freeform, wide open, create-as-you-go Super Hero adventure while at the same time struggling to maintain an ever increasing list of mechanics to cage in and control abusive power gaming and manipulation of the games desired essence. What you have is something falling in the middle of the two- a twisted hybrid that offers neither option well. Those that wish to freeform and be creative with their powers are often roadblocked by anti powergaming safeguards while the rule junkies are left with bareboned mechanics with which to move around in. The loopholes are constantly exploited and the noose grows tighter on both ends.

A new mindset needs to be applied to the rebooting of HA! The game needs to be, well, heroic again! Fun!
Battles need to be challenging without constantly being near fatal encounters! Combat should be fast paced, explosive and rewarding to players- offer more positive modifers for ideas, stunts and style instead of constantly bombarding the experience with overlapping negatives. A +1 here or there goes a long way! While a stacking -4 is just brutal. Go easy on these. You might even want to rethink the negatives you obtain when you take dmg (maybe just a -2 when your in your last health tier and none before that)- dmg is so easy to take and thats ever MORE negative modifers to contend with! As a player, it often feels like the best thing to do is simply boost your to hit, stay in one place and fire away. It doesn't feel like a fun, memorable comic book fight! It feels like a battle against the negative modifers and the clunky momentum of the game! Reward players, even in the smallest ways, and the game becomes far more enjoyable for everyone!

Pass out more chips. These babies should be blazing across the table, back and forth, for witty comments- cool ideas- heroic acts (even if they don't fit your calling, we are still heroes) and especially decent Rping! If someone uses cool voices, sound effects, awesome monologue- toss them a chip! We are constantly reminded that the good RPers have moved on and we never attempt to- but thats simply not the case. If RPing was encouraged more and rewarded sometimes I certainly think there would be more of it! Anywho, more chips gives the players more opportunities to try new things, attempt more stunts, survive more dmg- stand against the odds and be a hero!

Try some power level capping rules! There are ways to close the gap by simply doing this. After all, in D&D, you wouldn't have a Lvl 5 fighting aside a LvL 20 and expecting to challenge them both. There has to be some process of keeping things close enough to create encounters without crushing people in two rounds and boring another. Take a look at our power selections, before creating encounters, and our defences and power levels and create battles based off of this. It is more work, but what GM doesn't have to select enemies that work this way?

Ease up on the foes a bit. Especially mooks and henchmen. When players are taking 3-5 boxes of dmg a turn and you only have 12 boxes of life before your KOed (and there are tons of bad guys)- it makes combat a painful experience. Use the powers of your villains to challenge the players- not the sheer awesomeness of their power levels! The Superman-esque character SHOULD be ignoring tons of damage cause thats what he does- a foe that brings him to his knees should be terrifying indeed! Or perhaps use a type of dmg he is weak too!. Speedster and ninjaes SHOULD be hard to hit! Thats what they have going for them- don't beef up all enemies to gurantee you get your licks in on them- use snares, blinding attacks ect to slow them down and then take them out. Got a player that can hit well but doesn't do a ton of dmg? He is supposed to! Don't make tons of enemies with huge Def just to counter this! It makes it that much harder on the rest of the players and really takes away from the experience of being "the guy that never misses"! It would also lower the rest of the players frantic need to try and get "to hit" bonuses when they realize that their nothing bonus can actually get some swings in there! As players taking part in a super hero game- we want to feel like super heroes!

And lastly- if a power or combination of powers just seem insanely busted- its ok to say No. Yes we may whine or compain, but for a game like this to work there really needs to be a responsibility from both the player and the DM not to abuse this system and make it unenjoyable for either side. There ARE systems out there that have printed and sold lots of books that aren't really that balanced- because it is about the RPing and not the exploitation of mechanics. There comes a point where you say- Hey, I'm dealing with Super Powers and people's imaginations on the application of those powers- not everything will be balanced. But you can always find ways to counter it. And, like I said previously, as the GM you can simply say "No, that would ruin the spirit of the game. Try something else." Or, try it out, and if it doesn't work- adapt the power so it is more balanced! Games do that all the time! Allow the players to attempt things (that aren't outright broken) and change it if it truly disrupts the game. But I can be honest with you, not once have I felt like I had the upperhand in HA!- every fight was a brutal struggle to simply survive!

All that aside- don't get discouraged! The game is a heck of a lot of fun-you've done a lot of hard work- it just needs a face lift and a new approach. We all love the project, enjoy the world and being apart of it and I personally would love to see it printed and distributed- but you have to know what you really want to do with it. And- it has to be fun! Dave, this is simply the most important thing. The Players need to feel like super heroes! Why else would anyone play a Super Hero RPG? The system is SO close to being smooth and fun and entertaining- we just have to work the kinks out.

[Derek Raines]

Great Supers tonight, Dave! The changes were awesome, much more balanced, smooth, easy enough to learn (even though I am a slow student) and most of all- fun! Keep it up!

I'm sure we'll beta out the details as we go- but man, what a great new start and feel to HA!