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Post by gamedave on Jan 17, 2020 16:23:08 GMT -5
Please use this thread for comments, questions, feedback, and notes.
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Post by cassusaevum on Jan 18, 2020 20:56:10 GMT -5
Do all Talents operate at Scale by default?
In other words, Epic Wildcat needs the Climb power to scale a skyscraper, but Mythic Wildcat just needs an Athletics check (because the scale of the task is Epic)? And Normal Wildcat with the Climb power could spend a fatepoint to Upscale to attempt the climb?
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Post by gamedave on Jan 19, 2020 9:31:04 GMT -5
No, not exactly. Talents (and Abilities for that matter) don't have Scale. Only Powers do. You can think of it is Abilities and Talents operating at the Scale of the Power when the Power applies. But, if you don't have an applicable Power, the default Scale is Normal.
Let's look at some "real world" examples.
In the actual real, real world, normal human beings have actually climbed sky-scrapers. But it required specialized equipment and training. Even cinematic heroes usually require gadgets. So, climbing a sky-scraper "free hand" would probably be an Epic Scale feat. That means that any Hero could attempt it by spending a Fate Point to Upscale. A Hero with a relevant power at Epic Scale would be able to attempt the climb just with an Adventure + Athletics roll.
For example, Cyclops of the X-Men (in some depictions) has a Mythic Scale (but very narrow) Power Set - his Optic Blasts. Leveling a sky-scraper is probably a Mythic Scale feat. Since he has a relevant Power at Mythic Scale, he could attempt it, probably with Adventure + Shooting. But, if he wanted to climb the sky-scraper, he doesn't have any relevant Powers, so he would be operating at Normal Scale, and he'd have to spend a Fate Point to Upscale. If the sky-scraper was Norman Osbourne's (aka bobo-Lex Luthor) Evil Corporate Headquarters, with special anti-Spider-Man slicked surfaces, it would be Legendary or even Mythic Scale, and Cyclops couldn't even attempt it.
Another way to look at it. Three Wildcats from across the multi-verse meet and all attempt to climb a sky-scraper. They all have the Climb Power, but at different Scales. Normal Wildcat would need to spend a Fate Point to Upscale to attempt the Epic Scale task. Epic Wildcat would just roll Adventure + Athletics. Mythic Wildcat would also just roll Adventure + Athletics, but might have a Stunt that gives her +2 against lower Scale Climbing challenges.
(BTW, this brings up an area of the rules that where I'm still trying to iron out the kinks. Having Normal Scale Climbing doesn't actually seem to do anything. It makes sense you could at least Invoke it for a +2 or re-roll, but in the current draft, you can only do that if your Power is a higher Scale. I may need to re-visit that).
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Post by cassusaevum on Jan 19, 2020 12:10:34 GMT -5
Gotcha. So, with respect to the Super Speed example you posted (normal bad guy spends fate point to up his Shooting to Epic scale to have a chance to shoot Epic Super Speed guy), does that mean that the bad guy has a power that's basically a gun? So, something along the lines of a device or piece of equipment functioning to some extent as a power for purposes of Upscaling (also works with the climbing equipment mentioned)? That's a fairly common conceit in Supers games, but I don't think you've explicitly stated it anywhere. Likewise, on the "normal" guy lifting a car off of someone by upscaling... how does that fit in? Would they need equipment, or is physical strength a special case? I guess there are two main areas I'm trying to figure out. First, from a Combat sense, it looks like the Wild Child would always have Normal scale attacks if Talents and such don't operate at scale. There is the narrative "truth" of being like an animal (so presumably having claws and teeth or whatever) but there is no power to designate that as "super" weaponry. So, does that mean if a Wildcat type character at any scale came up against someone with Legendary armor (2 scales above normal, so outside of the realm of Upscaling) they would have no chance of harming it? I see that the "Super Agility" sort of dictates that some tasks work at scale, but I'm a little worried that if there are character types that should be combat-oriented but can only harm normal things (and can't spend Fate to upscale), that might be a bit weird. Maybe that's operating as designed and it's a GM power level setting thing, but the thought of not even having a chance to hurt the bad guy can be fairly disheartening at the table. Or, maybe it's just a matter of saying, "Hey, there's lots of animals that exceed normal human scale... can we add animal attacks as a scale-able power?" Second from a Power Set and character creation perspective (and assuming that Refresh can be spent on stunts and powers), the notion of talents and such not operating at scale seems to encourage people to play lower on the scale chart. Again, this might be the intent, but sacrificing 4 points of refresh to be able to do 1 power at cosmic scale (or 2 if you're willing to operate at 0 refresh) feels like a pretty steep price to pay. Generally, I like the concept of Scale and Refresh, but the interaction with Powers seems a bit off. A Cosmic Battlesuit has amazing Armor and let's say Weapons (as the freebie). But a Legendary Battlesuit could be at the same effective refresh and have Legendary Armor, Sensors, Weapons, and Strength. Is the intent that Higher Scale by default leads to fewer possible powers? This is one of those weird areas where balance and the source material are really hard to reconcile... As Iron Man's suit's got more powerful, they didn't get less capable in other areas. I may be thinking about this wrong, though... I know it's not meant as a "level up" sort of thing. Can't quite put my finger on what's bugging me about it... This might throw off your idea for balance, but maybe one way would be to look at it as a ladder. Normal Scale get's 1 power free. Epic scale get's 1 Power free and 1 Power at Normal Scale. Legendary get's 1 Legendary, 1 Epic, 1 Normal. And so forth... That might be too much, actually, but something along those lines... and of course Refresh spend gets you powers at your scale. Overall, I like where the system is going... these are just part nit picks and part trying to clarify the rules in my head. Supers games are hard.
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Post by gamedave on Jan 19, 2020 13:14:31 GMT -5
Basically, if something doesn't have a Scale, it operates at Normal Scale as a default. So, if you have a gun, that's a narrative permission to Shoot at a range, but you only inflict Stress at a Normal Scale. If you had a Gun Power, you could inflict Stress at the Gun's Power Scale. Your Hero's lifting ability is Normal Scale by default. I'm still working on the wording to make this clear.
This does mean that a Wild Child can't normally hurt someone with, say, Legendary Armor. This is very much intentional, to reflect the source material. Wolverine's got Adamantium claws, for example, but that's because he's combining a couple of different Power Sets (my system hasn't quite gotten that there yet). Sabretooth, on the other hand, or X-23, or Wolverine when he had his Adamantium stripped, were just using bone claws and just did damage at Normal Scale even though their Regeneration, Super-Senses, and so forth were probably at Legendary Scale. The Wild Child is really designed to scrap with Normal Scale foes, and have utility, but not necessarily go toe-to-toe with foes with high Scale defenses. That being said, using a Stunt for the Weapons Power, as a limited form of Shape-Shifting, which could be used at Scale might make sense. Or, for that matter, Shape-Shifting into a form that can inflict Stress at that Scale. Legendary Shape-Shifting, for example, might let you shift into a T-Rex, which could inflict Legendary Scale Trauma with its Natural Weapons.
Keep in mind, though, that Fate isn't just about super-punching. You can also Create an Advantage to help the heavy-hitters, or use Social Attacks to inflict Ego Stress, for example.
As for Stunts and Refresh, I realize now that I never wrote this down, but in SuperFATE!, you can't reduce Refresh to get Stunts. You get a couple of Stunts from the Hero's Journey (depending on your exact path). Also, getting new Stunts will be the main path for character advancement. In the source material, in my opinion, characters don't often actually improve their skills so much as they learn new tricks. Tony Stark doesn't really smarter or better at shooting his repulsors; he just keeps adding new and improved capabilities to his armor (in game terms, his Abilities and Talents remain pretty much static, but he has a lot of Stunts. Just, so many Stunts. So, so many).
Edited to add: Some characters, and Iron Man is one of them, do sometimes seem to improve in overall power. Iron Man's armor, both in the comics and the movies, does seem to operate at progressively higher power scales, and Power Scales, in later appearances. In SuperFATE!, the player is basically just choosing at certain narratively appropriate points to re-set his Hero's Power Scale. His BattleSuit's Scale increases, his Refresh is reduced, and everything else stays the same. I haven't written up Hero Advancement yet, but that's basically how it works. If it's narratively appropriate, you can re-set your Hero's Power Scale (usually upwards), and re-set your Hero's Refresh to match the new Scale. Since Scale is balanced against Refresh rather than point-based, this isn't really an "improvement" but an adjustment, kind of like Fate Core's Minor Milestones.
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